Sid Waddell

[Rich]

Sid was trying to tell the BDO in 1993, in his own unique way, that they were heading for the rocks. Of course, they didn't listen. The BDO hated that Sid did MC work at WDC events for much of 1993.

Sid had gotten some abuse from Tommy Cox on the WDC side at the 1993 Embassy too. Tommy had already seen the BDO as beyond help. At the 1993 Embassy, Sid did an interview with the BBC where he said that the WDC rebels were correct but that they were going a bit too far with wanting total control over the Embassy in 1994. Cox then said to Waddell "What kind of man are you? Doing deals with us one minute and then calling us greedy buggers the next". Dick Allix then said to Sid, "Does this mean that our deal for you to talk to Tyne-Tees Television about a WDC darts tournament this year is over?". Sid said "No, of course not. But don't tell Tommy until tomorrow. Let him sweat a bit".

Sid watched the 1994 WDC World Championship at a friend's house, as Sid didn't have Sky TV at the time. He was half-hoping that it would be rubbish, so that he could comfort himself by saying that nobody could do darts like the BBC. Instead, he was very impressed straight away with the whole presentation on Sky and could see that this was the future for darts. He felt as sick as a chip that he would be commentating at the 1994 Embassy instead. Sid spent the week at Lakeshite trying to avoid Olly and Lorna Croft, but they found him eventually and accused Sid of "betraying our family of darts". That tournament was the last of Sid's association with the BDO, as he joined Sky Sports in June 1994.

Essentially what I said but in ten times as many words.

[Captain Hobo]

Come on now everyone knows Tony David and John Walton would have smashed Taylor over 13 sets...or so I've heard.

13 sets is the key.
Ted could never sustain the required level for that long.
As for the other two........

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

[Captain Hobo]

And before anyone jumps in, obviously that last statement is assuming MVG only has to beat Taylor's opponents over the format Taylor beat them, and not Taylor himself.

[PT13]

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

This is silly logic. Without what Taylor has done since the 1990s, and the rivalry with Barneveld after the 2006 switch, the darts world as we know it today wouldn't exist.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

Who would have beaten Taylor?

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

And before anyone jumps in, obviously that last statement is assuming MVG only has to beat Taylor's opponents over the format Taylor beat them, and not Taylor himself.

Don't you realize that the present was shaped by an accumulation of events from the past?

[sennafan24]

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

Perhaps Taylor would have not won all 8, but he would have only been tripped up a few times. I could see him winning 6 out of 8 at least. He was staggeringly consistent in those years, especially relative to what the other players were doing.

Playing exceptionally well against Taylor didn't guarantee victory. Dennis averaged over a ton against him in the 1996 final. This also applies for earlier stages. Les Fitton averaged just under 97 in the 2nd round of the 2001 Worlds. Lowe averaged just below 99 in the 2nd round of the 1999 Worlds. Harrington averaged 94 against him over the best of 9 sets at the 1998 Worlds. Taylor dealt with all of them.

[PT13]

If Taylor is going to lose, it will be in 1995. Perhaps a Burnett or Beaton might have been dangerous, but Lowe and Harrington both had chances and Taylor dealt with them both. The Lowe match in the semis was high quality for the time, a lot of 15 or less dart legs.

Baxter was a BDO player when he beat Taylor at the 1998 World Matchplay. On that occasion, Taylor was leading and it seemed a normal Taylor match at 9-6 and 10-8, but then Baxter won 13-10. The Circus Tavern was Taylor's stronghold, though. 14 straight World Championship finals he reached there. The sets play format suited Taylor more back then, the reverse to today.

[Captain Hobo]

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

Perhaps Taylor would have not won all 8, but he would have only been tripped up a few times. I could see him winning 6 out of 8 at least. He was staggeringly consistent in those years, especially relative to what the other players were doing.

Playing exceptionally well against Taylor didn't guarantee victory. Dennis averaged over a ton against him in the 1996 final. This also applies for earlier stages. Les Fitton averaged just under 97 in the 2nd round of the 2001 Worlds. Lowe averaged just below 99 in the 2nd round of the 1999 Worlds. Harrington averaged 94 against him over the best of 9 sets at the 1998 Worlds. Taylor dealt with all of them.

That is the point I am making, I didn't say he would win less than 6 of the 8.

[Captain Hobo]

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

This is silly logic. Without what Taylor has done since the 1990s, and the rivalry with Barneveld after the 2006 switch, the darts world as we know it today wouldn't exist.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

Who would have beaten Taylor?

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

And before anyone jumps in, obviously that last statement is assuming MVG only has to beat Taylor's opponents over the format Taylor beat them, and not Taylor himself.

Don't you realize that the present was shaped by an accumulation of events from the past?

In the first Knockout game in 1995, Taylor averaged 89. I would suggest anyone who averaged 90+ during a game in that tournament was capable of beating him, especially over best of 7 sets. Harrington, Priestley, Lowe, Burgess and Bob Anderson all did that, as did 7 of the 8 Lakeshite Quarter Finalists. (P.s if you want a real shock, check Taylor's average in the Round Robin against Gerard Verrier)

Before Barney switched, Taylor won 11 of 13 PDC WC's. Would Taylor have beaten the Lakeshite Champ over best of 13 sets each of those 11 years? Most likely yes. If all 13 of those WC's had contained 99% of the best players in the world at the time, how many would he have won? I say less than 11. Between 6-8, with most of the defeats coming in the earlier rounds, similar to MVG in 2016.

[Randall]

Come on now everyone knows Tony David and John Walton would have smashed Taylor over 13 sets...or so I've heard.

13 sets is the key.
Ted could never sustain the required level for that long.
As for the other two........

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

In the early days it would have been virtually impossible for anybody to chuck a 106-110 over nine sets +, even Taylor, not on the those boards.
To compare the eras you have to take averages today out of the equation.
A 106 average today would probably be 96 back then. The boards really are that much easier.

[Captain Hobo]

Come on now everyone knows Tony David and John Walton would have smashed Taylor over 13 sets...or so I've heard.

13 sets is the key.
Ted could never sustain the required level for that long.
As for the other two........

What is always overlooked in this discussion is that it may not have been over 13 sets.

If there was no split and all the best players played in 1 World Championship, he may have had to play an in form player over Best of 7 or 9 sets. Hankey in 2000 would have been seeded in the teens. As MVG v Barney showed in 2016, nothing is guaranteed over that format, even with a 105 average. And then the next year MVG had a 106 average thrown at him in Rd 2, and 109 in the Semis. Taylor never faced anything like that in the early PDC days.

I think if the current situation had existed from 1995-2002, i.e. 99% of the top players in one org, with best of 7 up to the Last 16 and Best of 9 in QF, there is no way Taylor would have won all 8 of those tournaments. Someone would have beaten him.

And I think if you transplanted current MVG back to 1995, he'd have won 8 in a row as well.

In the early days it would have been virtually impossible for anybody to chuck a 106-110 over nine sets +, even Taylor, not on the those boards.
To compare the eras you have to take averages today out of the equation.
A 106 average today would probably be 96 back then. The boards really are that much easier.

I realise that. I am saying that Taylor didn't face the equivalent performance as that in the early rounds pre 2007, which would have been a mid-high 90s average, very often if at all.

[Randall]

I'm off today, will have a look at some stats if I can be bothered.

Taylor was and to a degree still is a darting freak.
Probably the most astonishing factor is that even today he holds the record for the highest average in a bdo final, and that in a game of 11 sets with a 95 average coming back 25 years ago.

[PT13]

In the first Knockout game in 1995, Taylor averaged 89. I would suggest anyone who averaged 90+ during a game in that tournament was capable of beating him, especially over best of 7 sets. Harrington, Priestley, Lowe, Burgess and Bob Anderson all did that, as did 7 of the 8 Lakeshite Quarter Finalists. (P.s if you want a real shock, check Taylor's average in the Round Robin against Gerard Verrier)

If Taylor had needed to throw higher averages, he would have done. I'm amazed that you don't seem to realize this, and seemingly treat his averages in the 80s as though that was his limit.

Before Barney switched, Taylor won 11 of 13 PDC WC's.

Yes. His dominance was that strong. 11 out of 12 from 1995-2006.

Would Taylor have beaten the Lakeshite Champ over best of 13 sets each of those 11 years? Most likely yes. If all 13 of those WC's had contained 99% of the best players in the world at the time, how many would he have won? I say less than 11. Between 6-8, with most of the defeats coming in the earlier rounds, similar to MVG in 2016.

I disagree. I think 1995 is the only year in that period where Taylor is vulnerable to a BDO player, and I'd still back Taylor. Taylor could win ugly too, not just dominantly. Set play suited him more then, too. He was a level above back then at delivering at those key moments in sets.

In the early days it would have been virtually impossible for anybody to chuck a 106-110 over nine sets +, even Taylor, not on the those boards.
To compare the eras you have to take averages today out of the equation.
A 106 average today would probably be 96 back then. The boards really are that much easier.

Taylor in 1997 was often averaging around 110, on those boards, like that match against Burnett in 1997 at the Circus Tavern.

I'm off today, will have a look at some stats if I can be bothered.

Taylor was and to a degree still is a darting freak.
Probably the most astonishing factor is that even today he holds the record for the highest average in a bdo final, and that in a game of 11 sets with a 95 average coming back 25 years ago.

Yes. 97.58 in the 1992 World Championship final.

[Captain Hobo]

In the first Knockout game in 1995, Taylor averaged 89. I would suggest anyone who averaged 90+ during a game in that tournament was capable of beating him, especially over best of 7 sets. Harrington, Priestley, Lowe, Burgess and Bob Anderson all did that, as did 7 of the 8 Lakeshite Quarter Finalists. (P.s if you want a real shock, check Taylor's average in the Round Robin against Gerard Verrier)

If Taylor had needed to throw higher averages, he would have done. I'm amazed that you don't seem to realize this, and seemingly treat his averages in the 80s as though that was his limit.

I am not saying Taylor is not a great dart player. I am saying in a hypothetical world where there was no split, he would have had harder opponents earlier in tournaments, and would not have won 16 World Championships.

You can see it in his losses to Webster, Chizzy, Smith and Klaasen since 2011. Webster was best of 9, others best of 7. Had they been longer formats, he probably would have won 3 of them at least, if not all 4. Short formats and decent opponents, upsets can happen.

[Randall]

Just watching the 2008 grand prix final.
Seems good and so natural to hear Sidney.